Adaptation in the Re:Newed World

It’s reiterate the digital marketing Podcast.

So welcome to reiterate, um, first guest in the studio today. Well, online, um, it’s Terry flack from connect digital. A very good friend of mine who is in some really interesting spaces with, with Google and all things digital. Um, we want to talk about adaptation in the renewed world. I think it’s time that we pull in the industry guys and see how they’re adapting, how they’re not, how they see including their staff, when things are going right or wrong.

And how business has been, how, how things are working or perhaps not. And then maybe privately, um, the challenges they’ve had and the things they’ve seen as great success. So welcome Terry.

Thanks for coming so much, please. Yeah. I need to check with you in this forum and this a really fundamental topic that you’ve, that you hit out.

So thanks for having me this morning.

Oh man. It’s actually quite cool because I mean, we chat about, have a coffee often, and this is forced to this which wouldn’t have happened and this is cool.

Yeah. Yeah. So it’s, it’s exactly. That just brings into question the quality of your coffee at home, right.

Yeah, true story.

Yeah, we need, we need to actually look after those guys and get back and see them kind of get a bit Slack on that, to be honest. Um, do you wanna talk a bit about connect and what you guys do?

Sure. Thanks, Dan. Appreciate that. So, so we are for want of a better term, a boutique agency where, uh, we’re a small, tight knit team.

And really, I guess, and I know it’s a, it’s an old adage, but our primary focus is, is digital innovation, but delivered with exceptional relationships. Uh, I’ve always, uh, I’ve always taken the view that your, your relationships are formative. And one of the key focuses. And I think it’s a, it’s certainly been the inspiration from.

Well from the much love mr. Branson also. So Richard is, as he’s known and he’s, he’s always taken the view of, of put your team first and, uh, and they will take care of your customers. So I think during this time it’s actually been incredibly interesting to see the dynamics within the team, um, from, from an edit patient and need for adaptation.

Yeah, the individual’s ability to adapt and, and how, how that, how that affects the. The team dynamic. And certainly within, within our business, it’s been quite, quite alarming that the shakeups that we’ve had, we had one staff member go rogue. And, uh, yeah, he, he, he did, uh, hit a couple of, uh, of cheeky maneuvers and had to exit the model of the business.

And, you know, this was at the height of all of this happening. So that was a bit of a shakeup for us. Um, we had another staff member who had been a little bit, uh, Well, the challenging culture of the organization and through the shy cop that actually saw her exit. So in a lot of ways, we’ve actually seen far more cohesiveness in the team.

Um, because we, you know, we, we, in the physical realm free COVID free lockdown, we would come a jar of plastic Monday morning meetings. Um, But three locked on. We, we would not doing it three times a week. So Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, and have continued that, um, and it’s actually been incredibly productive because everybody is on.

Everybody is communicating. Everybody is engaged and everybody is putting forward what they focus it. So I think that we actually were far more efficient and effective. Then, then we were pretty locked down. So. There’s a there’s as with all things, there’s been a, a number of real gems that have come out of this.

And, uh, and it really has been a lesson in how we, how we in life and in business show up to the challenges that we face. That’s

really interesting. Um, I kind of felt it might be somewhere along the answer, but that kind of fits exactly what I’ve experienced and seen in other businesses as well. People show up and they do the job and the ones that.

Uh, at a desk, you don’t know if they’re showing up because you just see them. They’re just the number that headcount, when this happens, where is this person? And it becomes really evident quickly that not doing anything. Um, we’re having a, and maybe this is a debate for another day, how to know I’m having a conversation with a lot of people around, what does the middle manager, and it’s been a kind of, it’s sort of, there’s a as a dinnertime kind of joke, what do they do?

And I think now there’s more of the equation than Neva and actually saw in a designer’s forum. The other day designers were asking, what am I having? Why is my middle man just sitting at home? What are they doing? I’m just reporting straight to traffic or straight to my account director. And they’re working in those kinds of relationships.

I think there’s going to be a shift, especially in our business with what does the middle management there. They need for it.

Yeah. And, you know, Bri brings up an interesting point to pre pre COVID. Uh, and I guess over the years of, of having been in business, um, there’s, there’s, there’s always been your okay.

Hierarchical structure of business. So you’ve got the boss man right on the top. And as you go down the level, so you, you drop in seniority and, uh, and I guess, decision making contribution to the business. And I think in a lot of ways that that is really an updated mode of our business management. And, um, you know, I think back to when I was studying 20 years ago, we were talking about the, the difference in business structure, one being hierarchical and the other being concentric and client centric.

Cause obviously you’ve got your team leader and everybody’s working around them, um, as opposed to the boss man at the top. And then it’s got a filter through all of these layers. So we now in a, in a play, so, uh, forced on centric team oriented dynamics, which, which is actually so much more effective, but because of that, uh, that middle manager syndrome.

So I think that that has been a massive, massive part.

That’s really interesting that you’ve seen that there’s a really good book by a guy called Michael Ferguson. I don’t know if you know of it. It’s called the square and the Talla, and he talks about those two different management styles.

Okay.

And, and the tower is obviously the hierarchy and how the square really makes business sense these days.

Now that’s kind of how Silicon Valley works and everything. Um, check it out. If you haven’t been, you makes a really good point about why this is, this is the way forward. I noticed the other day, but a couple of times, um, with, uh, with an agency I’m working with at the moment, they were presenting to quite a big bank and did a whole new website, design and structure.

And normally that would be, you know, a 20 minute meeting beforehand handed over and their seniors would go up and present. Well, the designer presents it cause she can enter the bit of job and all of us, of course, because she understands what she’s

doing

and the feedback was as good. If not better than it’s going to be.

If you get the suits in the room and she went from eating one. Starting out struggling with, with English. Cause she was a free constitute being fluent and brilliant at just presenting by, by meeting two people here.

Yeah. And, and think about the, the impact that that’ll have on that one individual’s life, you know, her confidence or self-belief her knowing that she can actually do it because she’s done it.

Whereas previously she would have been lost in the, in the Pragma or suits. So fantastic to see that that people and they talent ability, passion is now able to bubble to the surface and, and be shown for what it is.

Yeah, I think it’s cool. And it was also really nice to be there, to support. So when the hard questions were asked and floundering a little bit, You got to dance a bit kind of good statement and answer those questions and then show her it’s the next time she’d let to do that.

Or pre-think then, you know, the way it works, it’s all about breakfast. I think it’s really, really cool. And she shows up already, but she’s going to do exceptionally well. I think now she’s got a bit of extra thing in her bow,

you know? Yeah, no, exactly. And, and I’ll pick that we often forget, and certainly having seen this.

In my previous foray into the corporate world, that’s that people are people. They’re not numbers, they’re not cogs in a machine. Um, there are real humans with real emotions, real lives. And the more that we can understand that more than we can work with that, the model we can actually bring the magic that is so inherent and often so suppressed within them.

To the surface and you throw much more from an individual because they are feeling validated, they feeling they’re feeling worthwhile and, and there’s so much to be said for that.

Absolutely. Um, that kind of brings me to the next thing I wanted to talk about. And do you find that the creativity or the interaction has suffered or benefited.

Some people are better at it than others in terms of, of, uh, individual space. Um, and I’ve had different reports from different different agencies and different people, some love being at home, some don’t. And what have you found with your team and is there a specific kind of personality type that prefers the way you’re doing it and what are you doing or what were you doing when you were remote and that held it together?

Yeah. Fascinating question. And, and I think that that also. Just brings to the surface, the individuality, because you, that, uh, that, that have decided actually we’re going to make the most of this. We’re gonna, we’re gonna conquer this. We’re we’re gonna, we’re gonna come out of this base. And then we went into it and those are the people who you are now seeing are really starting to cry.

Um, yeah. And then you think the, those who are kind of succumbing to. Uh, to two, I guess the psychological impacts the, the creation of it, the frustration, the family dynamics, all of those sorts of things. I mean, we’ve, w we’ve put up a couple of staff members. She actually loved coming to it because it’s just so frustrating being at home and they feel that they feel almost a little bit okay.

Today. So it’s a, it really is. It’s been very different dynamics, but I think that that, that are we seeing a far greater level of. Commitment contribution, uh, creativity. And, and for me, one of the things that has been so amazing is, is actually seeing people taking ownership. Okay. Okay. Um, I’m not sure just to the monkey, see monkey do and deliver.

I’m actually here to make a difference and contribute and. That’s that, that there’s real power in that, because that is something that energizes people and enables them to step up to the next level, step more into the tree potentiality. And that that’s been one of the things over the years, working with my team where we, I could see the magnificent potential that they have far more than they can, because for whatever reason, a lot of authors taken them to this point.

They just, they, they, they lack a sense of worth.

Right. I understand that. I see that in the youngsters, when I, when I lecture and it, 20 years old, they broken already. It’s just terrible. And the point is to make them feel important. You know, the first time, the first thing I ever say to them is I’m not here to teach you anything.

You’re already an expert and that changes the mood already.

So that’s really cool senior, senior in action on that. And it actually is amazing. Um, I know that one lecture that I attended with you. And, uh, and you were talking, but I was what I was watching the participants. And you can actually just see the light shine in their eyes for that moment.

That, that flicker that comes on there. There you go. Actually, maybe yes, maybe this trip in that light. But they haven’t been given the tools to actually enable themselves. And that’s, that’s a really important

point. I complete, and sometimes they haven’t been given the permission,

you know,

I can, I can take into the water, then they’ve got to kind of drink it and give themselves permission from there.

But it’s 99% of the time you can’t. And it’s amazing that you’re getting that out of this with your team as well. One of these, one of these things, what is, what’s been a, have you been able to see, I mean, one of the, one of the definitions of a leader is not really about you. It’s never about you. It’s about everybody else to see when someone’s struggling, maybe psychologically or just with a space.

And have you, have you got any, any tips or anything for, for businesses out there for leaders that they can see and manage teams or people. How’s it feel

uh, old trim in the, in the banking industry. Now the customer, are you a customer? Um, and I, and I think that the, the same needs to be applied to know your star because they’re not yourself. They are people in your team who are working alongside you and, um, and understand the dynamics and. I don’t think all business leaders necessarily as subscriber will agree to this is a principle.

Well, but for me, understanding the family got in it’s understanding what as you’re going through, you know, what, what, what are they family lives all about? What are, what are they like doing? You know, what are they, what do they fears, hopes, dreams, it’s know them as individuals. Um, and that, if nothing else is actually really enriching for you as an individual who used a business leader, cause you get to see how.

Uh, how other people live? Uh, classic examples was yesterday. My, my wife, who’s an extreme impact and just, yeah, she, she’s just such a loving, caring person. And one of her, one of her staff members has to now work from home. And so she went out to take a set of groceries the time time, because the state is itself getting promoted.

Um, and, and she just said she cannot believe. How this individual is living, where she’s having to work off the floor. So she kept getting desks and sorting everything out for her today and had no idea. And you know, that was actually quite a, quite an emotional moment because this is somebody who’s formative to your business and, and knowing who that person is and how they live and what they believe saw and what, yeah, like I said, what their hopes and dreams are.

You, you get to know the person by knowing the person. That that individual is, uh, is far more honoring of you and your business and your customers. Um, and that all round is a, is a far better place to be. Then, listen, you’ve got to, you got to plug the holes and get as much out of it as you can. That’s

that’s really interesting.

So again, another thing that comes out of this displacement is more of a sense of understanding. I mean, Normally, I imagine, um, that person would have been sick. They would have gone home wife. Wouldn’t worry, worried about it too much because they’re at home to do whatever they need to do. This is a different scenario.

If she goes there and sees, Whoa, this is, this is the reality of this business that would never happen.

Yeah, exactly. You know exactly that day. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, and I even think to the, to the point, I mean, it’s kind of changed to put them up perspective in terms of, uh, your recruitment selection process as well.

You know, we were on shows itself. Of hiring a couple of new team members. And, um, and I want to know more about them. I want to know what their family situation is. I want to go, I have, I have a tea or dinner with their family and actually see where they come from and who they are, because knowing that background is fundamental to knowing that individual.

And so, you know that when that individual is going through a, through a dip. And you’ve put, you’ve put an insight as to, as to why.

Yeah. Yeah. That’s really interesting. That’s a very different interview

instead of telling them, tell me about it, then I’m not so sure how keen the candidate will be, but I’m going to pitch it to them.

Oh, absolutely. I think that they’re probably going to love it or hate it. And that’ll give you an indication about them as well. Sadly. And this is a lesson I learned a while ago from a, CEO’s just a passing comment. But he, because whenever I work with companies, I always negotiate what those terms are. I think that’s the way to do it.

And most people don’t and then they get upset that they’ve agreed to something that I want you, you’ve got to honor the agreement that you set up. So I always talk about what I want and, um, I think people don’t like talking about as many. That’s fine. I’d never problem with that. But how I work when I work, what I do.

And I said, you guys are quite a traditional company, but if I’m going to work with you, you understand that I’m not a traditional person. I’ll work at three in the morning if that’s that, that needs to be done, but I’m not necessarily eight o’clock in the morning, kind of everyday person. It doesn’t suit that the work I do doesn’t see anything.

And he said something, you know, I cleanse sadly, I’m quite a straight up and down Kai, but even I have to admit there are, there are rules for some people, and there are rules for others. Any basically meant the way that you conduct yourself. And the way that you show up gives you the freedom. To work as you choose and be, as you are, and the rules that you’re going to have, maybe that I’ve got a lot more relaxed than someone else’s and that goes back to them showing up.

Do you think, um, that applies, I think that applies to a lot of people, but do you see that at the moment? And do you see that going forward? How’s your, how’s your structure? Is it gonna remain quite, quite structured in terms of time and linear or is it already opened up to different things?

Yeah, look at it.

It shifts the, the, the adaptation in terms of, in terms of, of traditional structure has definitely needed to shift. Um, and it’s something from a cultural point of view that I’ve been working on a last few years. The fact that the traditional intelligence show up at eight have your lunch hour to at 12 and 30 days then, um, and.

Is also certain industry thinking whenever we watch illegal drama, how, how lawyers work through the knots and they doing, you know, 10 straight days of 18 hours a day. And I don’t think that that’s the other, but the traditional structure Sydney in my view, needs to, needs to shift from the structured time allocation to customer centric delivery.

And if we’ve got a delivery commitment, we’ve got, uh, we, we, we’ve just got to pull together, make it happen and do the very best we can. But at the same time, and this is something that from a cultural point of view, I’m trying to do more of the team is that when we do have the spices, it’s take a breather.

If it’s a, if, if it’s a Wednesday afternoon, we know that we delivered it and we actually, we don’t grab a pizza together and just. But I need it for work, actually. It’s just connect with each other, that human level. Um, and I think just, just reinvigorate and, and renew yourself for a moment. And, and it does that.

It also gives you more creativity, a chance to refuel and re-ignite, and that’s a, that’s a really important thing. So for me, the fluidity, as opposed to the structure is, is our new normal.

That’s awesome. That’s really cool. I think, I think a lot of businesses are going to struggle with that. Um, and I think they’re gonna struggle with it.

Twofold one is management’s never being comfortable with that, but the second thing now is the staff, the internal customer, they are now, they’ve now been aware that, Hey, you know what. Um, there’s a different world out there and I’ve just been exposed. I’ve been working at home for three months, so I can have my coffee whenever I want.

I’m wearing slippers. I’ll do whatever I want. Um, no one necessarily knows that I’ve gone to take my mother shopping, um, at 10 o’clock in the morning and those kind of become normal. And as long as the work doesn’t get affected, I don’t see how that’s going to be a problem. And I can see pushback and this amazing tension with companies.

Um, and I even see it in the kind of tech space where. Like the Googles and all that of the world, you know, you go to the offices and there’s lunch and there’s all the rest of the guys can go and use as much as they want and do whatever they want and sit by the pool. And they didn’t want us sitting by your pool.

I

want you

so much for the minors. I mean, and I know Twitter has said don’t ever come back to it. That’s what they, they announced that yesterday, like, or don’t like Twitter for the weirdness that it is. I think that’s a fundamental kind of signal. Isn’t it? It’s a Clarion. Just say like, The new way of doing it is I need to really care about what these people want.

And these people don’t want an office or they do. I think it’s going to be the push. Now the dynamics change. It’s not, it’s not a begrudging C-suites and an HR pushing them. It’s now that the bottom up kind of going, no, this doesn’t

work for me. Yeah, exactly that. And I think that that’s also far more acknowledging yeah.

The fact that people do have lives and so they do have families and they do, they do have, they do have something that’s outside of work. You know, I think that it’s been hell of an assumption from, uh, from your, your so and business owners over the years that, uh, these are employees. They’re not, they, they, they team members.

And I think that there’s. It’s such a power in languaging. And when you talk in the difference between a boss and a leader and an employee and a team member it’s words, but words have power. And I think that more that we, the more that we thinking in that way, that we’ve actually got to, we’ve got a harmonized home and work for the betterment of the individual and the betterment.

So the individual ultimately results in the betterment of the business. So it’s, it makes damn good business sense to actually. Do it that way. And yes, they are those folks to, we need structure who need order whose lives have just been controlled through, through the family environment and while they were growing up and et cetera, et cetera.

And they, they battled with endless, you know, just, it’s a matter of telling me what to do and I’ll do it now. You’re starting to create a Liberty freedom and choice, which has never been part of this. They make happen. And, uh, so that you see that shift and, uh, yeah, so it does come, does come with some, some challenges, but they’re interesting challenges.

And one of the things that has been, so I think, uh, enlightening for me is actually seeing that is you, do you or have traditional? We work well within structured parameter and control. And now that they’re seeing the benefits of having a little bit more freedom and Liberty, um, that it’s actually seeing them blossom as individuals.

That’s interesting. I never thought about it to be honest, because I’m very much whatever I need to do. I’m free, free like that, but you need to create an environment. That’s also say for the people that don’t like change and they need maybe an office to coach. Maybe you need a desk for three of those people that really need that security I’m.

So the rest of them will blossom and thrive. Some people won’t and that’s, that’s like taking an office person. And saying, um, this is the way it’s been for a hundred years and that’s the corporate, the corporate, I’m gonna use the word, man. I’m going to genderize it. Cause that’s been the way. And you do a one 80 and say, that’s the terrible way.

Don’t you can’t do that because every kind of prison the world and we need them, you know, I don’t want, um, I might want to create a counseling, but yeah, don’t one who’s, uh, who’s gets around. Okay. Rather than just be the accountant and make sure my, my business and my texts and everything’s done properly.

Um, And I don’t want a creative person that disappears. I never see them, but I want some kind of balance. You’ve got to allow for these different kinds of people. It’s going to be an interesting challenge and how I, you can see how, how buses against you have to kind of really not come to terms with different kinds of people.

You know, we always talk about, I think it’s one of the fundamentals of, of our business of business in general. When we talk about customers, it’s about the personalized experience,

right? Absolutely.

Whether it’s user journeys or whatever nonsense we’re talking about, we actually, what we’ve never thought about personalizing the experience of us for our teams.

True. And, and, you know, you’re now I’ve had over our many coffees that the discussions about the, the experience economy, and actually until you’ve mentioned it now, I hadn’t, hadn’t thought of the application of that within the work environment. But what it is exactly that, you know, what, what is the experience to, you know, just thinking back a couple of days, I had to, I had to bring all the team members income pro from the various homes and so on, we, we just needed to get together on a project we were working on.

Yeah. And, uh, and it was actually so heartwarming to see these individuals, some of them, some of whom hadn’t seen it yet for a good few weeks. And to see the genuine affection between them, even though they’d be working day in and they are in the virtual sense, but actually providing that, that ability for them to connect.

So, yeah, I think to your point, it’s we, we, we need a hybrid. Um, it’s not going to be the traditional corporates, a fixed structured environment. And I think that having a leaky fluid and free environments is not necessarily going to work to everybody’s advantage. But finding some something perhaps where there is the workplace and it is your anchor point and it is a place where people can come together.

Um, and then actually just enabling them with the system structures and, and I guess emotional and psycho, psychological support, you have the fluidity to start experimenting with a little bit more. It was a little bit more free form in terms of, of their lives, but also providing the stability and the anchor of that, a nest, one of the bed.

Yeah. That’s going to be, that’s going to be so interesting. Suddenly KPI’s become very real. Huh?

It it’s, it’s exactly that thing. It’s exactly that.

Yeah. I remember doing lots of those HR forms back in the day, and I thought, well, I’m going to have a meeting again in six months, the review is going to happen.

And those KPIs are going to be meaningless because the world shifts. But now they actually, we can use them know. I think quarterly is too, too far ahead. You almost need to use them weekly. If people need that kind of stuff. That’ll give some structure.

Yeah. Well, look to tell you a quick story on that before we move on, we do a performance review on a monthly basis with my team and, uh, performance reviews is really split into three elements.

Um, okay. And the first element is 10 points, which essentially without me trimming them is KPIs. But the first five of them that is, is all the soft skills. You know, how are you in terms of your time, between time management, how are you doing in terms of working with them, the team and your relationships with clients and all of that good stuff.

And then five points into the specifics of the job and it’s self appraisal. And then, and then I do the appraisal and that, and the scoring comes out of holding it and pretty much to at T for every one of my team. Uh, there was an expected dip in the scoring of, uh, March, March and April. And, um, the, the heartwarming part about it is that May’s got a picking up.

And then the June appraisals, pretty much every single staff member had scored at their highest score. And like I said, school that happens from my side and, and their side. Yeah. And then they would get the cumulative score on there. So that in itself, I think was where it was a real eyeopener in terms of our people taping and the power of them stepping out.

So that, I mean, that was, that was fantastic.

That’s amazing. So the ripples kind of have become waves and that’s the new motion that you’re going through that initial thing, obviously there was some time

I, wow.

So they really, really have embraced whatever this is. But they are living in now.

And, and I think you two can continue with your metaphor.

And that I think that, that they understand that like all of us emotionally, psychologically we’re feeling like they were, they were drowning in the waves that were starting to swell and swell, big common in March and April. Um, and they’ve now built themselves, uh, in conjunction with w with what we’re doing as a team.

And they own it, their own little life rights or their own little sailing boats. And they, there’s now a sense of Liberty, um, and a sense of accomplishment that we actually overcoming bigger waves than we had before. And, uh, and we more productive, more effective, more creative, uh, and more impactful than, than we were previously.

I lost you there for a second. Yeah. Um, that is amazing. That really is amazing. The adaptability of people is incredible. And, uh, as you said, people said some casualties along the way. I’m sure they’ll find their thing somewhere else that suits them. And I think that’s cool then,

you know, everyone’s settling on canoe.

It is what it is. And we think, think about it that, that old adage, and it’s always a fight in terms of our, of our personal relationships, where you’ve got a friend for a day of rent per season or print for life. And the same thing in the context of star. And, you know, I think that if you can, if you can celebrate it, if there’s no malicious intent for Phil will, um, pro from a staff member and, and if they want to, I want to move off in another direction, celebrate it, support it, encourage it, you know, it’s, it’s fantastic.

I had one of my team members do that and she was like, I look, I want to, I’ve got this job opportunity with another agency. And I’ve really got to explore it and I’m so bad at my feeling go, you got it, go, go try it, try it. It’ll be amazing. Three months later, she was back with that. So that, that, that would be, was a lovely accolades.

That they may be something that we’re doing right. Culturally.

That’s amazing. It’s amazing from a whole bunch of levels. I mean, the one that she came back, obviously there, the door was open to the fact that you had those conversations. I’ve had those before with, with, with people when they leave and they.

They petrified and you’d like, go for it. It’s gonna be amazing. And it’s great to see those people. Maybe if she hadn’t come back in six months to a year, 10 years, and then somewhere else in a different context, Hey, how’s it going? That’s such a rewarding thing. If you’ve got a history, but now you’ve friends, not mortal enemies because they did leave the company.

Never figure out companies that do that.

Yeah. It’s a little bit. Yeah. They, they, they just. They, they, they lose the humanity of, uh, of the relationship.

Yeah, I do too. So last question for you and we’ll last kind of topic to talk about is how has, how have you found the relationship with the clients? Cause beautiful. You’re talking about the internal stuff, but there’s these other guys that pay the bills every now and then. And how have you found the relationship with them?

Has it changed, um, in terms of feel, or was it just changed in terms of the tick, um, are the kind of types of people that perhaps want you to do the traditional and they feeling unloved or are they embracing this and kind of moving forward? Because they have to this isn’t like two years ago where they demanded you to come and meet with them and have coffee.

They can’t do it anymore. So, so I think that’s changed the way that they feel about the way that they have to deal with it. So what’s your feeling on that? What have you noticed, um, are there any frustrations or any positives

know, you know, Clint? I think, uh, very simply true colors, true colors bubble. Get the surface, right.

Um, we’ve, we’ve had, it’s a couple of clients who have just. Not engaged and not paid and, uh, not communicated the spot, but I mean, that, that was it. If it’s, if it’s two it’s a lot, right. Then there’s been a couple of clients who have who’ve kind of pay hardball. And I, and we, you know, we’ve just gone back with the, the humanity of tell us we’re all in this it’s it’s worker pen.

How could we do it? How can we see our way through this together? And, and I think that that’s, that’s served us well. But for the most part, people have been phenomenal. It’s kind of like it’s taken off the, that, and I don’t want to say corporate, but let’s say that the business, even year of people, and it’s got us down to two hot, you know, it’s moved us from Headspace into HeartSpace so we can have real yeah.

Conversations that say, guys, we know you going through this. We want to help you in this way. We were gonna, you know, we’re not going to believe you the next couple of months on this particular aspect, we can help where we can, but let’s keep the continuity going and stop. It is if there’s authenticity in the relationship, depends.

And the focus for the client where it’s actually not just about the client bullying, which for me should be the last consideration of it, as important as money in the bank is, but that relationship and that connectedness is actually. Formative. And that defines everything that happens thereafter, including paying the bills.

So, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s actually, and I was saying to one of my parents recently, he’s, he’s one of our bigger clients, a lovely, lovely guy. So yeah, he’s been, he’s been battling with cancer, so lost that last little while, and he’s been going through his, his changes, et cetera. And he’s been going through this.

It’s a, it has been a challenge, but taking the context really. Find out how he is, rather than we just going to get straight into it, did the business side of it. And so on. It actually has actually strengthened the relationship, but not just because I’ve asked the question and he’s grateful for it, but because actually from a compassionate point of view, I have a far greater understanding where he is, who he is.

So again, it comes back to the humanity of it. So it’s in a lot of ways it’s been. Uh, it’s been, uh, a scenario that is enabled through the, through the adaptation of relationships to, to be more human together and, uh, and not so not, not have to always be so business here about it. I, I

find that so, so refreshing and, and so true.

And, um, I’m not a sales person and never have been, I don’t like selling stuff. But having really having conversations or relationships with people, I genuinely genuinely generally get them to agree that maybe my suggestions or the, the way forward is the way that I’ve proposed. But I can’t say that I’ll have to go into one of those rooms where I’m

selling.

It’s not you, it’s

not me. It doesn’t feel genuine. It doesn’t feel right. And this, this relationship stuff is as much more, much more important, much more. It’s not because I’m. I’m being dishonest. I’m actually being really honest. You know, I think that’s a terrible idea. This is why, and I’m being genuine.

I’m going to make a lot of money by doing it, but don’t do it please. And they see the benefit in that. Um, and I’ve struggled with, with companies where that’s been about the sales just doesn’t ring for me.

Yeah. You know, I think that at all stages of, of life, business or personal, uh, your. Your honesty and integrity, uh, defines your, your, your reputation and, you know, money can’t buy that.

And so, and the better your reputation, the more that people are willing to hear what you’ve got to say. You know, I look at the contrast between my wife and myself. She, she, she. She just loads me as a, as a super salesman because I get so excited and so passionate and I’ve got all these ideas and I’m just like, I’m an Energizer bunny about if it is a result that comes through very effectively from a sales point of view.

So I’m good at that. And I know that I’ve always followed a path of sales without being sales techniques, that’ll learning and so on, but it’s actually a bot. Who are you? What, what, what kind of help you with and getting to the depth of that and the, the passion burger excitement and so on. And that’s my sales technique.

My wife is so much, so much like you is she, she’s kind of almost anti sales. I can’t sell. And if you put her in a room, like you put you in a room and the authenticity and the truth that comes out of it, people just resonate with that and it becomes. If the matches there, but if you’ve got the harmony of what you’re offering and what they’re needing, um, it’s a to complete.

Yeah, I do feel that. And I love the fact that there’s so many ways to approach it. And it’s great to have these different skills and different people that get, get excited about different things. The one thing though, I mean, you’re, you’re a great salesman, but you also, you also speak the truth. You’re not a, you’re not a guy, you know, walking out with a brief phrase, flogging, some kind of product selling stuff.

You do believe it. Remember those days,

Kirby vacuum cleaners, I think was one of them, but you, you you’re selling something. You believe it. And I think that’s, that’s something that, that I, I resonated with and I got completely get

that.

You know, one of my favorite people ever is Seth Goden. Um, they don’t really know about him in, in, um, plasty anymore, which is kind of sad.

Cause he’s been talking about this stuff for 20 years, you know? Yeah. One guy sits, so I hear you. Don’t like meetings cause not do meetings like a physical conference or a seminar. And they wanted me to meet beforehand. I won’t go to the conference or the seminars. It’s not my thing, but. So you don’t have meetings, so you never talk to people.

He’s like, no, I talked to people all the time. I just went to meetings about it, meetings, meetings that they had to push and blame. And that’s, there’s no point in every night and he’s been talking about it for 20 years and now the universities aren’t even expressing in this time, that kind of idea that we now need more than ever.

And there it is. There’s that phrase from the new, the new world now more than ever, which I don’t really like, but that empathy is kind of

missing. Yeah,

that understanding of like just people. Um, and the idea that, to kind of, I don’t like it using age brackets either. And in generational tagging, I think it’s rubbish because I think everyone’s kind of got their own bit, but there was always the idea that, um, millennials were more empathetic and compassionate.

I don’t know if that’s true or not. I don’t know where the, um, any group is more or less, but there’s certainly a space for people like that to expand now. That’s my house.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And you know, it comes back to what I was talking about earlier is, is your use of language yet now, would you rather have a meeting or would you rather have a conversation exactly the same thing contextually, but in terms of your, your terminology and the energy behind it I’d much rather have a conversation because meetings sound like something.

We were going to be talking about something. That’s not, we’re not going to come through a decision. So we need to decide about, and not the time to just talk about the thing that we thought about. And it’s a load of bollocks, have a conversation it’s meaningful, it’s that human connection. Um, and in the business context, and that’s true and authentic.

Okay.

I really like that. So, so maybe we shouldn’t call anything meetings. We should contextualize them. So I’m having a ketchup conversation. I’m having a brainstorm. I’m having a strategy session. They’d have put an idea of what I’m doing. Cause it brainstorm great. There you go. They’re really exciting.

But come with some parameters and give a proper brief. Otherwise they’re not a brainstorm. They just a waste of three hours. There’s some content going into that session, habit and leave. And

then the Saccos.

Okay. So Ben, that would meeting

yeah. With hashtag no meetings,

but I want to chat with you.

Yeah, no, exactly.

Carrie. This has been awesome. Thanks so much. Is there anything else you want to kind of add or last few on this?

I think, yeah, just in terms of, uh, of adaptation. I know that you’re not throwing around various phrases. Yeah, I liked, but I’m still grappling with the true meaning of it in terms of the brave new world that we live in.

Um, but, but I think that is, it is, and they always has been in terms of the progression of men, the need for adept at a patient and adaptability, you know, that’d be the intrinsic characteristic of a human being to, to navigate the highways and byways of life is by its very nature that, that person’s ability to adapt.

And I think in the business context now more than ever, um, um, I’m seeing what I term, the technology, humanity, polarity, and, you know, being in the, in, in the tech space, there’s just so much cool stuff that is happening and so much cool stuff that I’m seeing people wanting the things that they’ve never wanted before.

So we are involved in some. Super exciting projects, but I think that the, the need and the opportunity for yeah. Patient, um, through the, through this covert period that has kind of forced us into applying adaptation in our lives, personal and business, the whole school scenario, how insight NetSpeed. But, but I think that that, that if we take a positive spin on and actually really subscribed to the.

The ability to be adaptable and the will to be adaptable and, and the joy of adaptability, because it just provides you with such a, such a broader perspective on it online. And the fact that adaptation in business and in life is, is necessary now more than ever. And I’ll be taking, taking the moment to actually choose.

Um, and, and actually once to go through your phases of, of adaptation is incredibly exciting for classes this year.

Oh, I think so too. I think it’s never been a bit of time to be alive, even though it’s crazy. The two things I think are really interesting about adaptation is the businesses that we’re in.

We can do it from anywhere and we can have teams working all over the world. Yeah, because they need to choose from the base. You don’t need the person who’s on your town. And I think that’s great and it opens up opportunity for us. And then the other side is there are skills that, um, and it’s, it hasn’t been overlooked, but it’s certainly being frowned upon for ages.

Um, the skills that are hard skills. Where is my plumber. Where’s my electrician. Where’s the guy that can fix my call if I even need one anymore. All those kinds of things, suddenly the, the awareness of we are in big trouble without those tasks. Um, and I think it’s opened up that space as well to, to youngsters that perhaps weren’t cut out for.

Um, maybe a more philosophical intellectual journey can actually see how important. And I think the respect is back there. From the general public seeing like, Oh, I really do need that plumber. They don’t just kind of exist in this netherworld run, never see them because now I’m at home and have to deal with them.

And the world kind of stops if my water doesn’t work in. Um, I think there’s a, there’s, there’s a duality. There’s the fundamental need to move into tech and there’s a fundamental need to understand and appreciate people that do the services that we would be in trouble with without that might sound really, uh, uh, condescending.

But I don’t mean it like that. I think this has been a shift in the way that we, we value people. I think value might might’ve come back a bit.

Yeah. And, and, you know, if you, you started writing about that and you, you have a look at some of the countries, you’ll know the countries. I know your, your linkages with New Zealand, and there’s a real acknowledgement how I was going to say a real honoring that that may be a step too far, but real acknowledgement of the importance of people through, throughout our life value chain.

And, and I’m starting to see that more and more in the South African context, I believe because we’ve been, we we’ve been more of a traditional society and a more of a hierarchical, nevermind, flattening the curve. We flat new lessening, the pyramid, which is fantastic because now we can actually, we should be actually from a human point of view.

Acknowledging the guys who are cleaning our streets and who are packing our shopping bags and guarding our cause. You know, I’ve had a major shift in my own own life, just in that little space where previously I would have this, uh, this internal battle with the, with the dude who is trying to show me how to it.

Okay. I parked my car and I’m like, okay, I can pop my bloody car. You know, I know what I’m doing now. I’m just taking a view of anybody and everybody who is. Who’s there trying to help and kind of try, just make a difference in their lives and honor that. And absolutely. When you say that, what, what that has given me is that I’m not going to the local supermarket and having to deal with the stress of that planning call God, but I’m actually dealing with w now positive engagement in a smile.

And that leaves me in a better place. It’s, you know, humanizing your interactions with the world actually has a, has a mock benefit for you as a person. And, and isn’t that a beautiful thing that we, we off we are moving more towards how humanity and allowing the tech actually provide us with more time for, uh, for humanizing our lives.

Absolutely.

I think that’s so true. She really kind of destroyed the title of a book love and the type of COVID has probably. More than ever. I think we are seeing that humanity and it’s been amazing.

Yeah. Yeah, no, exactly. That exactly that

cool. Terry, thanks so much, really, really appreciate your time and we’ll catch up for real coffee.

Soon.

Con conduit, a local coffee shop is a, is open and we can do all of that social distancing and enjoy Java together. But thank you for your time, a friend and, uh, cool.

Thanks Terry.